Weston A. Price Foundation: shills and quacks

As far as soy products go, if we are going to truly consent to traditional diets, we can't forget that Asian populations are the ones who have traditionally consumed soy. For the sake of this argument, let's put aside whether or not it was fermented. Asians are, by now in our evolution, adapted to a diet that contains soy. Other ethnicities simply are not. Some ethnicities are not able to tolerate milk, but some absolutely need dairy to thrive because that is how their ancestors evolved and the conditions under which they progressed. If you are a white American, a black American, a Hispanic American (or European) then you will simply not be able to tolerate soy very well, certainly not in large quantities. Wouldn't it be best to research and discover what your own ancestors consumed (i.e. Scots and oats, Swiss and dairy, etc.) and follow that as closely as possible?

However, there is something to be said for soy as Asians consume it, regardless of what your racial/ethnic history is. Soy milk is not a traditional Asian food, and the same applies to most of the soy foods we consume in America.

If you do believe that soy is a sacred food we should consume, that's fine, I can accept that. But the way it is processed and denatured and put into just about everything you buy at the grocery store is an assault of your sacred food. Just as those of us who consider raw dairy from happy cows to be a sacred food that is assaulted by the pasteurization and homogenization processes. I know many vegetarians who do not eat meat for philosophical or religious reasons, and I respect their concern for life; it is inspirational even. But I personally keep my own livestock and I know that my animals are healthy and happy. We do not eat them, we enjoy the gifts they give, raw milk and pastured eggs. It would be cruel to our cows to refuse to milk; I remember weaning my own children, and how painful it was to be bursting with milk and no one to give it to. If we didn't milk the cows, they would suffer. If we didn't use the eggs that our free range chickens give us, the chickens would not be any better off for keeping them to themselves. You do not have to eat meat to keep livestock from suffering. We have never culled any of our chickens, and the hens are older than most (in commercial operations they only live for about a year and then they are no longer meeting the cost/benefit of what it costs to feed them) but even though they are "old" they are supplying us with a fertile, organic nitrogen-rich manure for our garden and they supply us with eggs. We don't eat the fertilized eggs, we let the hens hatch out new babies. Our entire farm operation is in perfect harmony with our vegetarian friends' ideals, and for that they are also able to partake of our farm with a free conscious. Cows are, at this point in our history, so domesticated that if they are not cared for by humans, they will die a very graphic and painful death, usually by starvation but likely also by being hunted by another predator. You can leave a horse out in the wild, and it will go feral and survive just fine. A cow cannot do that. Cows need humans. Perhaps that is a tragedy of our neolithic transition, but it is what it is. If you value life and the life of this species you will understand that they need to be cared for by people. It can be done in an ethical way. I had read of a 90 year old man who had a 30 year old cow and they were both still living together very happily, the cow supplying him with his daily milk and him caring for a cow who lived longer than most.

Anyway, that's my argument, I hope it has been respectful to everyone here. Thank you for taking the time to listen to a differing viewpoint.

Wow. Thanks for this blog! Reading through these posts has been really eye opening. The believers in WAPF are a lot like right wing Christian fundamentalists! What's really creepy is this seeming desire to dissuade people from living the compassionate lifestyle that a well planned vegan diet provides, all the while touting concern for animals.

Their views certainly espouse the commonly claimed as 'biblical' idea that animals are only here to serve us, so get over any recognition that slavery is slavery, and accept that might really does equal right! And do they truly believe that it is sustainable to raise all the grass fed beef and other animal products they think people need, or do they really only care about themselves?

The only way we can maintain the level of consumption of animal products currently in demand in the world (and what a nightmare it is to know that increasing affluence in China and India is only going to increase that demand to horrific levels)is to factory farm it!

And the 'must be afraid of death' put-down is such a desperate argument against the vegan's desire to decrease his or her ecological footprint in the world, help limit animal suffering and enjoy GOOD health... it suggests that the real denial in the room is that of those WaPF believers who claim no need to differentiate between life and death! These necessarily interwoven realities, are certainly NOT the same if you're the one struggling to stay alive, and that awareness is the inspiration for many perfectly healthy vegans aspiring to live more lightly on the planet to approach both life and death with conscientious awareness of the power of their food choices over not just their own lives, but the lives of so many others.

There is no time to waste for serious environmentalists.The real organic wave of the future, building now, is the move away from dependence on not only oil, but on animal agribusiness in all it's polluting forms. There are farmers in the UK and elsewhere in Europe, and more recently in North America, promoting stock-free growing practises which, for one thing, exclude the incredibly wasteful consumption of precious water that livestock raising demands. http://www.goveganic.net/

While vegetarians and vegans are well meaning, caring people it is important to note that of the populations that are naturally, primarily vegetarian, none of them pass up available meat or milk products entirely. Even Buddhist monks encourage younger monks to eat some meat, some times. Tibetans would not be able to withstand the weather up on the Himalayan plateau without copious amounts of yak butter tea. And they eat yak meat -they just have the Muslim butchers slaughter the yaks.

So populations which have evolved foodways over time is one thing: populations claiming 'truth' via 'mental theory' is quite another.

I have never known anyone eating a reasonable diet, even out of a large grocery store, to be malnourished. I have known more than a few vegetarians who nearly killed themselves from eating in accordance with Silly Mental Ideas.

Edamame (which are the younger soy pods) have less antinutrients than soybeans and other soy products. Moderate comsumption is quite safe. No established human populations lived with soy as a mainstay of the diet. All traditional populations fermented soy. NOBODY here making "positive" soy health claims has cited any of the research against soy, particularly absent from those posts is the increasing amount of research which shows soy to be VERY harmful to children. Let me ask you: do you think a product that is so harmful to children is somehow totally safe for repeated adult consumption?

I'm all for a balanced discussion. I'm all for people making their own choices. And for every vegetable-crusading nutball I have but one reply:

Every time you breathe, you kill something.
You aren't going to live without killing something.

Taking the life of something that feeds you, with respect, is making-sacred the interconnection of all life, very much the province of enlightened human living!

And every time I get spammed by PETA and hit up by the Carrot Crusaders - every time you tell me how 'bad' I am for not doing it your way I go out and have a steak. If you are so nasty to people who don't share your views, why would anyone want to join your Team of Nastiness?

You know Darth, I would expect you to say such nutfuckery, considering you're one of those nutfuck 9/11 twoofers. You actually believe CSPI advocated trans fats? I read that article, loonwaffle, and they didn't advocate trans fats. Just another example of a nutball 9/11 twoofer who doesn't get anything right. Plus in all of your obesity twoof ramblings, it seems that the only ones you attack as "Food Nazis" are Jews, and you actually have the gall to compare these Jews to Nazis. Fuck you, you anti-semitic America-hate trash.

Did any of you ... even read WA Price's book? I have it and it makes me sick to see what we have done to ourselves today. Dr. Price found many primitive diets that the native people stuck too gave them incredible health and virtually no dental problems. When they switched to "WHITE MAN'S FOOD" he noted that poor health deformities and a lot of dental problems!

READ HIS BOOK!

"On the soy front, they point to studies where animals were injected with extracts of soy protein and got sick, and ignore studies where humans ate traditional soy foods and improved their health. (It is true, though, that overconsumption of processed soy foods is not healthy. Choose tempeh over TVP.)"

Thats not true, they say soy is ok when fermented. Asian people have known for a long time to ferment soy before consumption. Sally Fallon agrees with you, I heard it when undergroundwellness interviewed her. Your arguing against nothing.

The WAPF advocates animals raised on open pasture from small, local farms. Thier followers, along with vegetarians and vegans, are such a minority. You would think they could band together to expose the big business meat and dairy industry for what they are - cruel and completely unhealthy.

As a follower of weston a. price, and a former raw food vegan, I see both sides. I do. I feel better when I eat meat and dairy, and I completely understand when people are vegan for years and years and feel great. Does evolution have nothing to do with it? Some cultures are vegetarian, and have been for thousands of years. Others live off of whale blubber and meat and have gotten along great.

Lets all love each other and band together for the common goal of compassion and promotion for a whole-food diet.

Tom, thank you very much for all the excellent comments you've provided. I've been disgusted for years seeing too many caring, thoughtful people having been conditioned by the WAPF's anti-soy, anti-vegetarian agenda. Especially since many of these folks did not know of the true WAPF pro-meat/dairy agenda. Thankfully people are beginning to find out who they really are, that they are behind the vast majority of all the anti-soy/vegan fearmongering that we've seen over the past decade, and that they are just basically another arm of the meat/dairy industries. Whether it's derived from factory farms or family farms, it's all derived from the exploitation and intentional killing of another being against their will, and it all is part of the industry as a whole.
Also, concerning the plant comments above, go out to your garden and pluck an ear of corn, a tomato, a pepper, some broccoli, etc, and watch how the plant is still quite able to continue to live it's full, natural lifespan. Now go out to a field and, if you can catch them naturally, pluck the arm, leg, etc, off of a cow, chicken, pig, bird, etc, and watch what happens as they stumble in agony and then bleed to death.

I had never heard of WAPF before I received a pamphlet in the mail from my brother-in-law. He is studying to be a chiropractor and he and his wife have taken it on themselves to enlighten the rest of the family about what they are studying. I usually listen politely to what they have to say and make my own choices. I have always leaned towards vegetarianism. I am not a vegetarian, but I have seen how much my sister has benefited from a vegan diet and have drastically cut the amount of dairy and meat that I consume. I am sure that one day I will take the plunge and become vegan myself. In any case, my vegetarian leanings and consumption of soy products have made my brother and sister in law completely crazy. It is so bad that they will not talk to me because I offended them by not cutting soy from my diet. When my baby was born at a healthy 9 1/2 pounds, they told me that she was so big that she was headed to the Jerry Springer show and it was because I ate soy products when I was pregnant. They are so zealous in their belief that we should eat meat and dairy that they started feeding meat to their own child when he was less than 6 months old ("we eat it, why shouldn't he?"). When my mother in law's cholesterol topped 300 and her doctor wanted to put her on statins, they convinced her to instead eat more eggs, bacon and cheese at every meal! Of course, she took their advise, I think she was afraid to insult them. Now she carries around baggies of cubed pork and cheese for her snacks. She won't even go back to her doctor to get her cholesterol checked since she started her new "diet".

Bottom line, to me, WAPF seems to be a cult to me and extremely dangerous. It reminds me of Scientology whose members shun family who do not adhere to the beliefs and promote dangerous medical treatments. There is no scientific evidence supporting their beliefs, I completely believe that it is a tool of the meat and dairy industry.

You write:

"They advocate a diet high in saturated fat, which according to our best scientific knowledge is linked to a higher risk of heart disease and stroke. WAPF simply denies that such a link exists, sort of like how tobacco companies simply denied the link between smoking and lung cancer."

This is simply false (not to mention poor grammar) and disqualifies your blog from serious consideration. The WAPF devotes pages to detailed critiques of the argument that saturated fat is linked to heart disease or stroke. They cite study after study, and engage in minute analysis of facts. They may very well be wrong, but they are not "simply denying" the link--they purport to disprove it. That being the case, your obligation, if you wish to respond to them, is to respond to their specific points. Have they misprepresented the various studies they cite? Given only one-sided accounts of them? The fact that you say something blatantly false, and do not bother giving a shred of meaningful information, leads me to suspect you don't have much to offer in this discussion.

I am amazed that throughout this entire list that everyone misses one of the most critical points to be made: The fact of the poor nutrition of processed foods. Food giants have engineered processed foods to perform more like drugs than food by skilled manipulation of fat, salt and sugar. They could care less about nutrition and that is why 2/3 of adults in this country are overweight or obese. They eat junk and the body calls for more nutrients to digest the junk. They eat more junk and.... you get the picture. Lots of empty calories.

Pure foods free of GMOs, pesticides, hormones, antibiotics and other synthetic poisons are vital to our bodies. When we ingest poisons the body uses nutrients to isolate those poisons. Often the metabolites from those poisons are more toxic than the originals substance.

What the Weston A. Price Foundation advocates a return to whole UNPROCESSED foods and “the foods of your ancestors”. They are what our bodies have adapted to. Obviously some foods aren’t readily available so we must substitute. But when you substitute you need to use foods similar in content. In any case, they must be nutrient rich. For any of you who don’t know any better, “nutrients” are not synonymous with “calories”. Fats and protein from grass fed animals will provide a wealth of nutrients beside just the fat and protein. Quality fruits, vegetables, grains, legumes and nuts are also vital to good health. Want to know the appropriate ratios of what to eat? Google “Luise Light” and learn her story of dismay as the FDA nutritionist charged with creating the food pyramid.

For those of you citing WAPF followers as “quacks”: I am a Weston Price Chapter leader. I have researched many of their claims and have yet to find legitimate evidence contrary to their claims. I suggest you won’t be able to either.

For those who refuse to consume “land based” animals: Who are you to draw the line between different living things (ie; fish and fowl?) If your personal convictions lead you to avoid meats then fine. Don’t indict everyone else.

For the soy advocates: It is nonsensical to believe that you will get any objective information from the industry. Research is sponsored by those with money. The ones with money and interest are big agribusiness. If a study indicates that their products are less than what they market them as, you will never see that study. That’s why studies on GMOs performed by the industry are 100% favorable and 90% of those performed by independent sources seriously question the safety of GMOs. (Take out the studies by the tainted FDA and that will be nearly 100%.)

Mr. Swiss - Re: “The idea that unfermented soy is poisonous is simply nonsense, as is your attempt to label vegetable oils as "new" or "plastic" – Do you know how modern oils are made? Enjoy the hexane (a known carcinogen) with your next dose of yummy modern oil. Clearly it is a toxin. Also, my small farm is humane, soon to be certified as such. The typical small farmer is MUCH more caring of his animals that the industrial megafarms. To argue otherwise shows you haven't been on many.

You people are insane, all legumes are toxic if eaten raw. I once ate lightly cooked soy beans and got terribly ill. THAT'S TOXICITY. But cooked soy beans are healthy.

To "Shmeep" (who wrote back to Tom's very RUDE comments). Thank you for your original posting. I too attempted full veganism for 1.5 years in my mid twenties. No animal products of any kind. Mostly I followed the writings and diet plans of Dr. Ornish or that other guy, Dr. McDougall.

I had never felt more sickly and "out of sorts" than when I was eating in this manner, as I avoided everything that was not recommended on their vegan/super low fat checklist. I had adopted this diet for animal rights/ethical reasons, but for the well publicized "health" reasons as well (I took the latter to be the added bonus of superior HEALTH and vitality that would result from avoiding all animal/artery clogging fats!).

But I quickly realized that my health was simply going downhill after several months of eating this way. My energy levels crashed. I exercised but never seemed to have enough energy to keep up with the daily routines and I was always hungry. My total cholesterol level went down to 120 and my doctor was wondering what I was up to. I told him that I was simply avoiding any and all animal products.

One day, after a very long bike ride, I became very dizzy from what seemed to be complete and total exhaustion. My highschool friend, who is a pediatrician and was visiting that day, kept asking "what's wrong with you?". Almost a year and a half into my vegan existence, I was thin but totally out of energy. I was always in a type of perpetual brain-fog and could never think clearly.

My friend, concerned at what she was seeing and knowing that I was subsiting on tomatoes, carrots, boiled greens and starchy vegetables or boiled beans, told me "enough already". She went into the kitchen and scrambled up an egg with a small pat of butter. (I was the only vegan in the household, so there WERE animal products, like eggs in the fridge!)

She put the plate down in front of me and said to me, "please just eat this". I told her that I hadn't eaten anything from an animal in well over a year and she told me in an ironic tone, "yes, and I can see the wonders it is doing for your health". The cooked egg sat there for a couple minutes and then I said to myself, 'what the heck'. Within a couple minutes of eating it, I felt much better and the dizzy spell went away.

The next day, I ate a piece of fish that had been cooked up by my aunt, that was as fresh as can be. We lived in a seaside town in Greece and the fresh fish was always available. After eating the fish with a wonderful cucumber side salad, I noted again how much better I was starting to feel after eating this type of food. It was on this second day that I decided to never look back on my attempt at veganism.

Once I reintroduced some animal proteins in the form of some fish and dairy products (mostly pastured eggs and the occasional batch of raw milk) things just immediately turned back around. My energy came right back. Coincidence? Who knows.

In the many years that have transpired since returning to a more omnivore type of diet, I've never felt better and my health is perfectly fine. No more fatigue or those really scary dizzy spells. I have energy to maintain my exercise routine and to chase after 3 very active little kids. My total cholesterol has since bumped up to the 170s but I don't have an irrational fear anymore of these numbers either. Yes, I admit to having read the Good Calories/Bad Calories book. Cholesterol is something our bodies and our brains actually NEED.

I have come to terms with returning to the consumption of meat products by visiting and purchasing only from the biodynamic and sustainable local farmers in my area. I will not purchase any factory farmed, grocery store type of fare.

I've read the writings on both sides of this issue [and all the stuff in between] and have come to my own conclusions. I know what works for me and feel everyone needs to be free to make their own choices: good or bad. The guy who was tongue-lashed (above) by you, Mr. Tom RUDErson, knows what works for him and put forth a very thought provoking post. Tom, you too, know what works for you, but as another writer mentioned higher up in the postings, unless you, TOM, can stop yourself from breathing (and subsequently killing off thousands of tiny microbes) then you have to realize too that all life revolves around the constant cycle of life and death that takes place on this planet all the time.

People don't need to be bullied about the way Tom likes to do on this blog. I believe he will not get far in his ultimate goal of saving the animals from their terrible suffering using his ugly bully tactics and harsh/offensive language. He could go a long way by looking into the ethics behind the more humane farming practices of the smaller family farms, because it is a far better living existence for these animals. People are never going to stop eating meat. It goes back to the days of the cave man.

I read this entire page here today and am pretty horrified at the disrespectful approach Mr. Tom takes toward the meat-eating readers of his blog. He seems full of hate, venom, and dispair.

Good luck Tom, no one is standing in the way of your veganism or vegetarianism, but your mean spirited approach and hateful tactics in your writings gives vegetarians a bad name.

So get your butcher knife sharpened and ready, Tom, and start slicing and dicing my latest post here. For someone who purports to be such a humane pacifist, you sure are one scary dude (who talks about killing people and grabbing their organs to put into coolers etc...) You are guilty of the same hateful and murderous thoughts you assign to all the people out there who eat meat (something that has been taking place for millenia, as you know).