From our archives of Tom's USENET posts. These posts data back to the early 1990s; the author may have mellowed with age since these were written, but the basic views remain. (Please note that web links inside this document may be broken.)
<![CDATA[From tms Wed Sep 21 11:21:23 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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Discussing waste in the Maryland state budget, ejh@larry.gsfc.nasa.gov
(Edward Hartnett) writes:
>
>Well I happen to know that the Greenbelt police spent severl hundred
>thousand dollars recently to get infrared tracking devices installed
>on their helicopters. Their reason (I'm not making this up, as Dave
>Barry would say) was to be able to track teenagers who are smoking pot
>and run into a field to escape the police.
The War on (Some) Drugs is full of such waste. No, scratch that - it
_is_ such a waste. Remember that every cop out looking for pot plants or
harassing junkies is one more cop who's not around while you're getting
mugged. Remember that thanks to manadtory minimums they're letting out the
murderers and rapists to make room for the people who use the wrong drugs.
It's petty drug cases that clog our courts. It's the profitable black
market created by our new Prohibition that fuels much of the urban violence
that costs us not just in dollars but in lives.
Despite over twenty years of failure to curb drug abuse - indeed, of
instead making the problem worse - the War on (Some) Drugs goes on. Want to
save money on the state budget? Be wise - legalize. Save money, save
freedom, save lives.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
Free people keep and bear arms to defend freedom by any means necessary.
"Duty then is the sublimest word in the English language. You should do your
duty in all things. You can never do more, you should never wish to do less."
-- General Robert E. Lee
From tms Thu Sep 22 11:32:23 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>> Despite over twenty years of failure to curb drug abuse - indeed, of
>>instead making the problem worse - the War on (Some) Drugs goes on. Want to
>>save money on the state budget? Be wise - legalize. Save money, save
>>freedom, save lives.
>
> What? Legalize Drugs? Are you out of your mind. You feel that
>legalizing drugs will save money?
Well, a lot of your fellow conservatives and Republicans do. Maybe
you've heard of William F. Buckley? Or Milton Freedman? Or George Schultz?
All favor legalization or decriminalization of drug use.
> Buddy, this would cause so much of a burden on the State of Maryland
>that we would go bankrupt. Could you just imagine all the traffic accidents,
>lost work, lost income, lost tax revenue from the legaliztion of drugs.
Yes, I can. All evidence suggests that accidents would not increase as
most currently illegal drugs cause less loss of driving ability than
alcohol. Tax revenue would certainly _increase_ if currently illegal drugs
were sold and taxed the same way alcohol is. As for lost work and lost
income, there is no evidence that users of currently illegal drugs are any
less productive than users of currently legal drugs.
Before you go speculating, maybe you should get some facts?
>I'm sure you'd like to legalize Crack, so that the government now supports
>the death of its citizens.
The government already supports the death of its citizens - see Waco,
Texas.
Back on topic, the War on (Some) Drugs costs plenty of lives. First,
you've got black-market fuel violence. Then you've got overdoses and
poisonings from drugs of unknown strength and purity, which would be cut
down by legalization and regulation. Plus the occasional civilian shot by
overzealous Drug Warriors.
> Yes, the legaliztion of drugs will cut out the drug market, although
>the effects of usage will have wide spread effects. Nothing like have your
>children killed in a car crash on I-495 because some trucker saw "veins
>popping out of the road" and decided to turn and avoid "the veins" while
>smashing a car full of kids. Sure lets legalize drugs? Get real.
Who said I want driving while impaired to be legalized? Driving while
impaired by the use of currently illegal drugs should be treated the same
as driving while impaired by alcohol.
>"Born to die." <--- Smoke a few more crack rocks and you can live
> what you preach.
A few more? Never touch the stuff. But, like it or not, we're all born
to die...
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
Free people keep and bear arms to defend freedom by any means necessary.
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel
and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more
than half the bible is filled, it would seem more consistent that we called
it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness
that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." -- Thomas Paine
From tms Thu Sep 22 11:39:44 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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dan@umbc.edu (Dan Dinkin; ACS) writes:
>
>In article <35pj1v$ifh@shemesh.tis.com>, tms@tis.com (Tom Swiss) writes:
>|>
>|> Despite over twenty years of failure to curb drug abuse - indeed, of
>|> instead making the problem worse - the War on (Some) Drugs goes on. Want to
>|> save money on the state budget? Be wise - legalize. Save money, save
>|> freedom, save lives.
>
>Um, excuse me? Why exactly are there so many murders? It is because of
>the drug trade that there are gang and turf wars.
Almost. It's because the drug trade is _illegal_. Liqour distrbutors
rarely get into turf wars with each other because their trade is nice and
legal, but bootlegging during Prohibition caused lots of violence.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
Free people keep and bear arms to defend freedom by any means necessary.
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel
and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more
than half the bible is filled, it would seem more consistent that we called
it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness
that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." -- Thomas Paine
From tms Thu Sep 22 11:50:36 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>
> But tell me Dan, how do you fight a population (future tax payers)
>of Marylanders (And Americans) who are dazed/burned out on drugs? What do
>you do about the 16 year old girl who desides to jump off the Legg Mason
>building because she feels that she can fly after tripping on LSD which
>the goverment (Under your ideas) supports?
Tell me Alby, how do you fight ignorance and prejudice and fear?
All available evidence suggests that drug use would not significantly
increase post-legalization. See the example of the Netherlands. See the
example of experiments with the decriminalization of cannabis in the US in
the 70's. Your fear of a population "dazed/burned out on drugs" simply has
no basis in fact. (Unless the drugs in question are the over-prescribed
mind-numbers Valium and Prozac (can you say Soma, boys and girls?), but
that's a matter for another discussion.)
You also might want to find out a little bit about the effects of LSD
before you go fear-mongering about people on LSD jumping off buildings.
Sane, stable people who use LSD recreationally don't do things like that;
such behavior is indicative of a pre-existing problem. People with problems
should only use such drugs as part of a treatment program.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
Free people keep and bear arms to defend freedom by any means necessary.
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel
and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more
than half the bible is filled, it would seem more consistent that we called
it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness
that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." -- Thomas Paine
From tms Thu Sep 22 13:31:53 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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mjr@tis.com (Marcus J Ranum) writes:
>> Who said I want driving while impaired to be legalized? Driving while
>>impaired by the use of currently illegal drugs should be treated the same
>>as driving while impaired by alcohol.
>
> Take it a step farther. People should accept responsibility for
>their actions behind a wheel. That doesn't mean just that they should not
>drive drunk, or stoned, it means that they should be aware of their
>condition in general, and act responsibly. When I was a student, I
>often drove (fast) in a highly fatigued state, which probably impaired
>me as much as a few glasses of wine would have. That was irresponsible
>behavior, though technically it is not "driving under the influence."
>I once passed out at the wheel from insulin shock because I was tired
>and ate only processed sugars* for breakfast. Luckily, I wasn't going
>fast and coasted to a stop on the shoulder of the road.
Agreed. I'm not sure what sort of legislation is appropriate, but
driving while impaired is the problem, regardless of whether it's caused by
drugs (legal or not), lack of sleep, low blood sugar
>mjr.
>(* in those days, 2 cokes and a bag of peanut M&Ms)
Sheesh, Marcus, that's not a balanced diet. Everyone knows you have to
have a Sprite (or other lemon-line soda) in there, to get your "fruits and
vegetables" group. The peanut M&M's give you your protein group (peanuts)
and dairy group (milk chocolate).
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
Free people keep and bear arms to defend freedom by any means necessary.
First Law of Socio-Genetics:
Celibacy is not hereditary.
From tms Fri Sep 23 12:58:55 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
> Why not pay Texas or some other state to take the garbage and
> save all that money, and save our land in Montgomery County... ?
Talk about short-sighted and selfish - out of sight, out of mind, eh?
We need better waste management then moving the garbage heap to another
state.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
Free people keep and bear arms to defend freedom by any means necessary.
"Gee, but I'd like to be a G-Man / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
Just like Dick Tracy, what a "he-man" / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
I'd do as I please, act high-handed and regal
'Cause when you're a G-Man there's nothing illegal."
-- Harold Rome, from "The G-Man Song",1937
From tms Mon Sep 26 17:46:44 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>
> Because drugs cause our society to turn into Zombies. I don't care
>if drugs are legal or not. The point is, is that drugs such as Crack-Cocaine
>destory people within months, days. or a few years of usage.
And that's simply not true. Taken as a whole, users of currently
illegal drugs are just as functional (indeed, some studies suggests _more
functional_) than those who use only currently legal drugs.
If you're going to run for office, don't you think you should become a
little more informed on these issues? I will _gladly_ loan you my copies of
_From Chocolate to Morphine_ by Weil and Rosen and _Intoxication_ by
Seigel.
> How can you support the death of cocaine which the Cali Cartel
>brings into the United States.
"The death of cocaine"? Isn't cocaine an inanimate substance? You've
lost me here.
>The Cali Cartel brings 27 million tons of
>Cocaine into the United States a year. And why is that?
Because they can make huge profits on it, thanks to the price supports
of the War on (Some) Drugs.
> If you legalize drugs and
>allow people to smoke crack, snort cocaine, they will either turn into Zombies
>or drop dead after an overdose..
This is simply not true. Where do you get this stuff?
I've known people who have used just about any drug you can name.
While not all of them were rocket scientists, none were by any means
"Zombies". Which isn't to say that there aren't people who get into bad
relationships with drugs; but this "try illegal drugs once an ruin your
life!" just doesn't fly.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
A Law of Computer Programming:
"Make it possible for programmers to write in English and you
will find that programmers cannot write in English."
From tms Tue Sep 27 12:26:41 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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jpoletti@hns.com (Jon Poletti) writes:
>
> Alcohol and drugs create a dependency which can be psychological or
>physical.
Depends on the user and the drug. Making such a blanket statement is a
sign of ignorance. That's not an insult - ignorance is to be expected. You
Have Been Lied To.
>You can split your hairs anyway you like, Nigel. We pay a price in this
>society for drug use. The argument of whether it should be legal or
>illegal is moot. We pay dearly, regardless.
We can pay less, by implementing intelligent harm reduction policies.
> The only way that our society
>is going to eliminate drugs is to stop the demand. So why don't people
>just stop?
Because the desire to alter our consciousness is a basic urge found in
all animals with more than a handful of neurons. Probably you have it too.
If not drugs, then music, dancing, thrill sports, sex, meditation, video
games - all of which carry their own risks and possible dependancies.
Drug use is older than mankind. Talk of eliminating it is pointless.
But we can reduce the risks and problems.
>All I ask that people give up drugs for the betterment of us all.
My giving up or not giving up any drugs I may use, legal or not, will
not better your life one bit. It is, quite frankly, none of your damn
business what goes on in my head.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start
closing in, the only cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive
like a bastard from Hollywood to Las Vegas ... with the music at top volume
and at least a pint of ether." -- H.S. Thompson, "Fear and Loathing in Las
Vegas"
From tms Tue Sep 27 12:40:54 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>
> I think we should just declare war on the Cali Cartel, and after
>getting permission from the Government of Columbia,
Oh, right. "Hey, guys, mind if we bomb the hell out of your country
and kill a few thousand innocents who happen to get in the way?" "Sure,
come on down!"
> we invade Columbia
>and snuff out all the known air strips and manufacture facilities, hunt
>down the suspected bosses of the the Cali Cartel. Over all fund a new type
>of Warfare. A Direct War..
How many thousands do you want to see die?
> This is the only way to snuff out the Cocaine which comes from the
>Cali Cartel. And those of you liberals who feel that destroying the Cali
>Cartel wouldn't curve the cocaine flow. Lemme tell that the Cali Cartel in
>Columbia controls %80 of the worlds cocaine supply.
So if the Cali cartel was smashed, some one else would take over. I'm
sure they'd be greatful for the business opportunity.
> That would make a serious impact on the drug flow to the
>United States...
There's already folks growing coca plants in the USA. You'd just
accelerate their operation. Or people would turn to heroin (making a
comeback these days anyway, I hear.) Or methamphetamine or other synthetic
drugs. Or you'll see an increase in huffing gasoline and spray paints. When
drug abusers can't get their drug of choice, they'll turn to another.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start
closing in, the only cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive
like a bastard from Hollywood to Las Vegas ... with the music at top volume
and at least a pint of ether." -- H.S. Thompson, "Fear and Loathing in Las
Vegas"
From tms Tue Sep 27 13:38:50 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>
>
>Tom Swiss
> I have only one question for you.
>
>Do you feel that Drugs (From Pot to Cocaine) are safe on the human body when
>used, and that they do not harm the person taking it in any way?
Of course not. Any substance, if used improperly, can harm the person
using it. You can die from drinking too much water, for crying out loud.
People can get addicted to carrots. But the fact that a thing can be
dangerous if misused does not justify locking up people who use it. I know
two people who lost thumbs to power tools (one was able to have his
re-attached): do you think we should ban table saws? At least those used
for recreational wood-working?
> Tom Swiss, I would love to see you run for office
Fat chance I could get on the ballot, being an independent in this
state.
>and promote the
>legalization of drugs and how it would alright for people to obtain their
>favorite brand of Cocaine,Pot,LSD, etc from their local Giant Food Store.
...as opposed to their local street corner, where they are readily
available these days?
>Sure your not a Libertarian?
("You're", contraction of "you are", not "your". Pet peeve of mine.)
No, I'm not a member of the Libertarian party. I agree with them on
some issues, mostly those of personal liberty, but I do support some
measure of social spending and some business regulation.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start
closing in, the only cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive
like a bastard from Hollywood to Las Vegas ... with the music at top volume
and at least a pint of ether." -- H.S. Thompson, "Fear and Loathing in Las
Vegas"
From tms Wed Sep 28 15:59:25 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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ecf_stbo@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (A plank, a stick and a sheet) writes:
>In article <36779j$nvv@shemesh.tis.com>, mjr@tis.com (Marcus J Ranum) writes...
>> Part of a national policy review on substances should rationalize
>>how on one hand we legalize highly addictive deadly poisons [that don't
>>make you feel especially good] like nicotene, while other substances that
>>are practically non-toxic* and apparently non-addicting such as LSD are
>>treated as highly dangerous!
>
>Part of it probably still is the bias against those longhaired Hippy dippy
>FREAKS doin that hippy hippy shake. Longhaired FREAKS!
Racism and bias are the amoung the foundations of our drug laws.
Earlier this century, anti-cannabis propaganda painted marijuana as the
drug of such evil scum as Mexican migrant workers and black (*gasp*) _jazz
musicians_. Cocaine made black men into monsters who might actually look at
white women. Opium was the drug of the heathen Chinese.
Here are some interesting excepts from the appendix of Thomas Szasz's
_Ceremonial Chemistry_, which provides a history of drug use and
prohibition.
1902 The Committee on the Acquirement of the Drug Habit of the
American Pharmaceutical Association declares: "If the
Chinaman cannot get along without his 'dope,' we can get
along without him." [Quoted in ibid, p. 17]
1914 Dr. Edward H Williams cites Dr. Christopher Kochs "Most
of the attack upon white women of the South are the
direct result of the cocaine crazed Negro brain."
Dr. Williams concluded that " . . Negro cocaine fiends
are now a known Southern menace."
[New York Times, Feb. 8, 1914]
1914 Congressman Richard P. Hobson of Alabama, urging a prohibition
amendment to the Constitution, asserts: "Liquor will actually
make a brute out of a Negro, causing him to commit unnatural
crimes. The effect is the same on the white man, though
the white man being further evolved it takes longer time
to reduce him to the same level." Negro leaders join
the crusade against alcohol. [Ibid., p. 29]
1921 Thomas S. Blair, M.D., chief of the Bureau of Drug Control
of the Pennsylvania Department of Health, publishes a paper
in the *Journal of the American Medical Association* in which
he characterizes the Indian peyote religion a "habit
indulgence in certain cactaceous plants," calls the belief
system "superstition" and those who sell peyote "dope vendors,"
and urges the passage of a bill in Congress that would prohibit
the use of peyote among the Indian tribes of the Southwest.
He concludes with this revealing plea for abolition: "The
great difficulty in suppressing this habit among the Indians
arises from the fact that the commercial interests involved
in the peyote traffic are strongly entrenched, and they
exploit the Indian. . . . Added to this is the superstition
of the Indian who believes in the Peyote Church. As soon
as an effort is made to suppress peyote, the cry is raised
that it is unconstitutional to do so and is an invasion of
religious liberty. Suppose the Negros of the South had
Cocaine Church!" [Thomas S. Blair, Habit indulgence in
certain cactaceous plants among the Indians, *Journal
of the American Medical Association*, 76:1033-1034 (April
9), 1921; p. 1034]
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"There are some microorganisms that exhibit characteristics of
both plants and animals. When exposed to light, they undergo
photosynthesis and when the lights go out, they turn into
animals. But then again, don't we all?"
From tms Wed Sep 28 16:42:29 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>
>>> Tom Swiss, I would love to see you run for office
>>
>> Fat chance I could get on the ballot, being an independent in this
>>state.
>
> Tom, how about if you join the Democratic Party and tell them how
>you support legalizating drugs.
Because I don't want to be a Democrat much more than I want to be a
Republican. (The only reason I give the Democrats a small edge is because
of the heavy influence of the Religious Right in the Republicians.) I don't
see much in either party's platform that I agree with.
> I'm sure those Hard Core Left Wing Democrats would support your cause.
>Join some Pro-Legalization group so they could fund your campaign. Otherwise
>if you run as a Independant you'll need a large percent of the registered
>voters to get your name on the ballot.
Yeah. That's the problem - discrimination against those who don't
choose to join a political party.
Remember that contrary to popular belief, we are _not_ a two-party
system. Legally, we are a no-party system. Political parties get no mention
in the Constitution. They should have no more standing in the law than any
other organization.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"There are some microorganisms that exhibit characteristics of
both plants and animals. When exposed to light, they undergo
photosynthesis and when the lights go out, they turn into
animals. But then again, don't we all?"
From tms Thu Sep 29 12:19:57 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>
> You shouldn't base your claims on what a party stands for. I'm
>a republican, but I do not support any beliefs in Religion, I am Pro-Choice,
>I have mixed views on the death penalty, The familiy values speech is a joke.
Which I suppose is just another example of how the parties don't
stand for anything, except power.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"The contemporary message - the subtext of contemporary life - is keep your
fucking mouth shut and be a drone." -- Frank Zappa 1992
From tms Mon Oct 3 12:48:18 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>
> And you see what happens when you let the Democratic party in power?
>Just like Dukakas, they let the felones out of jail. If you checked up on
>Sauerbrey's campaign, she will institute Mandory Sentencing. No one gets
>out.
How much will she raise taxes to pay for this? First you'll have to
build new prisons, then you'll have to pay for food and clothing for
prisoners, and for lighting and heating prisons. Then you'll have to hire
more guards.
If we let the drug users out, we'd have plenty of jail space for the
violent criminals, the ones who need to be locked up, and we could save tax
dollars.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"...and remember you're a Man, not just god, and for you there aren't
and never will be any easy answers, only questions, and no reasons,
only causes, and no meaning, only intelligence, and no destination
and no kindly magic smiling down from above, and no fires to goad you
from below, only Yourself and the Universe and what you make out of
the interface between the two equals."
-- Keith Laumer, _Night of Delusions_
From tms Mon Oct 3 12:54:26 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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gregor@nrlfs1.nrl.navy.mil (joe gregor) writes:
>
> Good points. I don't mean, pick one faith and use that. Heck, *I* can't
>even bring myself to do that. But perhaps it would be possible to give
>kids the freedom to express (or not) whatever faith they want to express.
They _have_ this freedom. There's nothing to stop two students from
discussing religion over lunch or during study hall.
>There is probably enough common ground in all the different flavors of
>religion that this might not be too disruptive.
Hardly. I can't think of any common ground between my own Zen/Pagan/
Taoist/Athiest view and that of, say, a Fundamentalist Creationist
"everyone-who-doesn't-agree-with-me-will-burn-in-hell" sort of so-called
Christian.
> Then again, it may create total chaos, one kid preaching to another.
>
> Then again, we already have near total chaos, one kid beating, knifing,
>shooting, another (not to mention his teacher, principle, and school
>security guard).
Yes, but this is quite orthogonal to the issue of religion.
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man
would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear and
punshiment and hope of reward after death." -- Albert Einstein
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"...and remember you're a Man, not just god, and for you there aren't
and never will be any easy answers, only questions, and no reasons,
only causes, and no meaning, only intelligence, and no destination
and no kindly magic smiling down from above, and no fires to goad you
from below, only Yourself and the Universe and what you make out of
the interface between the two equals."
-- Keith Laumer, _Night of Delusions_
From tms Tue Oct 4 11:28:07 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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cs.jhu.edu> <36qb60$b0f@bigdog.fred.net>
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trajon@bigdog.fred.net (Tracey or Jon) writes:
>
>If you stopped doing drugs you wouldn't have to worry about the high prices.
>If everyone who used drugs stopped, these drug kingpins, mafia, and all the
>rest would go out of business.
Yeah. And if people stopped having recreational sex, we'd eliminate
STDs and unwanted pregancies. And if I sprouted wings, I wouldn't need my
car. So what? None of these are going to happen. (Hell, I'd say it's _more_
likely that I'll suddenly sprout wings than that humans will stop using
recreational drugs...)
> Until drugs are legal and cheap (this is
>assumed because we don't know what the longterm supply curve will look like)
>it is the people who use drugs who keep these scumbags in business.
Note the assumption of "scumbags". Actually, most drug sellers I've
met have been pretty average folk, dealing a little on the side for spare
cash, or buying more than they need from their connection and passing the
rest on to friends at cost. Of course, these people have almost all been
dealing the "soft" stuff - cannabis, mushrooms, LSD - to middle-class
suburbanites. The inner-city crack market is probably a lot different. But
since it's a black market, the end buyer has no idea what sort of middlemen
may have been involved.
Post-legalization, you'll be able to look in your copy of "Shopping
for a Better World" and check out whether the company that makes your drug
of choice is following ethical business practices. But users today have no
way to check up on that. And to expect people to stop purchasing something
because they might, just _might_, be supporting unethical activity is
downright silly.
> Don't
>blame the government. Blame yourselves.
Since the government is responsible for pushing the drug market
underground, thus making it impossible for buyers to be fully informed
about those with whom they do business, it is reasonable to blame the
govenment.
>If you can't stop, then you might want to do something about that.
Since they're likely to be locked up, those who do have a problem and
can't stop aren't likely to come forward to get help.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Gee, but I'd like to be a G-Man / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
Just like Dick Tracy, what a "he-man" / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
I'd do as I please, act high-handed and regal
'Cause when you're a G-Man there's nothing illegal."
-- Harold Rome, from "The G-Man Song",1937
From tms Tue Oct 4 12:02:49 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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mjr@tis.com (Marcus J Ranum) writes:
>tms@tis.com (Tom Swiss) writes:
>> If we let the drug users out, we'd have plenty of jail space for the
>>violent criminals, the ones who need to be locked up, and we could save tax
>>dollars.
>
> Let's save tax dollars even more and just shoot 'em.
> Yes, it's too expensive right now, with the current legal system,
>etc, etc. Let's fix that.
Cutting down the appeals process means more innocent people getting
executed. I find even one unacceptable.
> If these guys are so dangerous to society that
>they need to be locked up for life, let's just put 'em down like we would
>a dangerous animal.
Well, I have to disagree. I simply don't trust the government enough to
give it the power of life and death over anyone. Give 'em an inch, they
take a mile, next thing you know you're facing the gallows for "spreading
dangerous ideas". Remember Socrates...
But even if we were sure that it would be applied only for repeat
serious violent crimes, do you seriously think it could be applied fairly
and without bias? The evidence seems to be against it.
While I agree that there probably are people out there whom it would
be most effective to humanely put down, there's no one I trust to make a
decision as to who that is.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Gee, but I'd like to be a G-Man / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
Just like Dick Tracy, what a "he-man" / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
I'd do as I please, act high-handed and regal
'Cause when you're a G-Man there's nothing illegal."
-- Harold Rome, from "The G-Man Song",1937
From tms Tue Oct 4 12:06:10 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>
>> If we let the drug users out, we'd have plenty of jail space for the
>>violent criminals, the ones who need to be locked up, and we could save tax
>>dollars.
>
> That is fine with me. I would support a "limp" enforcement of drug
>users. As for dealers, they should be sentenced for 20-40 years without
>parole. You can look at a drug dealer as selling delayed-death.
No more so than tobacco companies. Actually, for most drugs, less so
than tobacco companies. Indeed, if that's your concern, marijuana sellers
definely shouldn't be included, as cannabis users live on the average
longer than non-users.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Gee, but I'd like to be a G-Man / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
Just like Dick Tracy, what a "he-man" / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
I'd do as I please, act high-handed and regal
'Cause when you're a G-Man there's nothing illegal."
-- Harold Rome, from "The G-Man Song",1937
From tms Tue Oct 4 12:15:15 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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ejh@larry.gsfc.nasa.gov (Edward Hartnett) writes:
)) Hardly. I can't think of any common ground between my own Zen/Pagan/
)) Taoist/Athiest view and that of, say, a Fundamentalist Creationist
)) "everyone-who-doesn't-agree-with-me-will-burn-in-hell" sort of so-called
)) Christian.
)
)I think you must confess to some religious bigotry there
)yourself. Both you and the hypothetical Christian you mention would
...
)Indeed, I would expect that you would agree with said
)Christian on many different areas, perhaps even more than you would
)disagree on.
But how do we weight those different areas? To me, the fact that we
might disagree on whether it's moral to shoot doctors who perform abortions
is much much more important than that we might agree on other things.
)I beleive I read in the post about some "value based teaching" method
)that was going into wide-scale use in D.C. schools - anyone out there
)know anything about it.
)
)They did a fairly simple study, as I recall. There were a bunch of
)classes that were about to be exposed to handicapped students. In some
)of the classes the teacher told the kids repeatedly that they should
)be nice to the handicapped kids and not make fun of them. In the
)others (apparently) they did not. Not too suprisingly the kids that
)hade been instructed to be nice were considerably more considerate and
)helpful to the handicapped kids.
)
)Pretty simple concept, isn't it?
Yeah, fine. But I repeat, totally orthogonal to the issue of religion.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Gee, but I'd like to be a G-Man / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
Just like Dick Tracy, what a "he-man" / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
I'd do as I please, act high-handed and regal
'Cause when you're a G-Man there's nothing illegal."
-- Harold Rome, from "The G-Man Song",1937
From tms Tue Oct 4 12:22:13 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
)
)))
))) Tom Swiss
)))
))) I have only one question for you.
)))Do you feel that Drugs (From Pot to Cocaine) are safe on the human body when
)))used, and that they do not harm the person taking it in any way?
)))
))
))And I have only one question for you.
))
))Do you feel that you have the right to prevent others from using any
))substance which might harm the person taking it in any way?
)
) Answering my question with a question. I just want to know
)if you feel that Drugs (From Pot to Cocaine) are safe on the human body,
)and that they do not harm the person taking it in any way?
If this is directed at me, I already answered...
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Gee, but I'd like to be a G-Man / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
Just like Dick Tracy, what a "he-man" / And go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
I'd do as I please, act high-handed and regal
'Cause when you're a G-Man there's nothing illegal."
-- Harold Rome, from "The G-Man Song",1937
From tms Wed Oct 5 14:25:03 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>
>
>>Where's the guilty verdict by a jury when a motorist is stopped and
>>his cash seized by local law enforcement thugs?
>
> The police feel (From their training) that the motorist commited
>a crime. They they book them, the judge gives them the chance to post bail,
>and they then have a trial to determine their guilt or innocence.
Read what he wrote again, Alby. He's talking about the joy of civil
forfiture, by which thugs with badges can seize your property without even
_charging_ you with a crime. You have to take the government to court (good
luck!) and prove (yes, the burden of prove is on you) that the property was
not being used in illegal activity.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Nature abhors a hero. For one thing, he violates the law of
conservation of energy. For another, how can it be the survival
of the fittest when the fittest keeps putting himself in
situations where he is most likely to be creamed?"
-- Solomon Short (David Gerrold's _War Against the Chtorr_ series)
From tms Fri Oct 7 12:17:12 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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jpoletti@hns.com (Jon Poletti) writes:
>
>I was wondering when the angry libertarians were going to jump into this.
I prefer "passionate defender of personal freedom". B->
>I guess I think that people should be responsible for their actions.
Agreed.
>If we want to reduce the costs of drug abuse on our society, then we've got to
>stop doing them.
Not agreed. Say I sit home and smoke a joint with my friends. First,
this is drug use, not abuse; second, it doesn't cost anybody but me anything.
>If nobody cares about the costs of drug abuse, then let's legalize 'em and
>sort out the bodies later.
All available evidence suggests the drug abuse will not significantly
increase post-relegalization.
>|> Note the assumption of "scumbags". Actually, most drug sellers I've
>|> met have been pretty average folk, dealing a little on the side for spare
>|> cash, or buying more than they need from their connection and passing the
>|> rest on to friends at cost.
>
>Do you think that your friends are a representative sample of the drug
>kingpins and pushers who are shooting eachother and innocent people in the
>street?
Please read what I wrote before you respond to it. First, I didn't say
they were my friends, I said they were people I've met. Second, I thought it
was clear that my point was that the "drug kingpins and pushers" who are so
visable may not be representative of most drug sellers.
>|> And to expect people to stop purchasing something because they might, just
>|> _might_, be supporting unethical activity is downright silly.
>
>Be responsible for your own actions, they may affect other people. None of
>us is an island.
Nor are we all Siamese twins. I cannot be responsible for
unpredictable or indirect effects of my actions.
>Drug users pushed it underground by continuing to purchase drugs once
>the government made them illegal. I blame the users.
The government had no legal or moral authority to make such laws in
the first place; to continue to attempt to legislate and enforce what I may
or may not do with my own body is tyranny of the worst sort, to be resisted
by any means necessary.
>I definitely agree that mandatory drug policies imprison some of the wrong
>people. It is stupid to imprison users. As far as dealers go, that's another
>story.
Why? Is the dealer responsible for the user's personal choices as to
how to use drugs? Unless the dealer is misrepresenting his or her product
or commiting some other type of fraud, the responsibilty for responsible
use instead of abuse lies with the user.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he
would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am
not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on
it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me..."
--Vizzini, "The Princess Bride"
From tms Tue Oct 11 12:14:11 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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mvk@yogi.tuc.noao.edu (Mary Ker) writes:
>
>I think you are ingoring the very well documented effects of a lot of
>illegal substanceson teh nervous system.
References?
> You appear to be arguing that
>the dysfuntional, irrational, impulsive behavior of addicts is a
>cultural rather than a biological phenomenon. I would argue taht both
>play a part, but that the biological is, in most people, the larger
>part.
The historical evidence doesn't seem to support this. Addicts of a
century or so ago, mostly middle-class users of patent medicines, seem to
have been quite un-impaired. Consider some famous examples: Sigmund Freud
and Thomas Edison were coke-heads, Dr. William Halsted (leading surgeon and
co-founder of John Hopkins Hospital) was a morphine addict.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise
infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand
Jury... nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be
twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in
any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived
of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor
shall private property be taken for public use, without just
compensation."
-- The Constitution of the United States of America
From tms Tue Oct 11 12:32:14 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
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jpoletti@hns.com (Jon Poletti) writes:
>
>|>>Be responsible for your own actions, they may affect other people. None of
>|>>us is an island.
>|>
>|> Nor are we all Siamese twins. I cannot be responsible for
>|> unpredictable or indirect effects of my actions.
>
>You are responsible for those effects -- the question is, do you accept that
>responsibility or do expect the rest of society to pay for your mistakes? If
>you injure someone through the "unpredicatble or indirect results" of your
>actions then you need to make ammends to those injured.
Now that's nonsense. Let's do a little thought experiment. Let's say
I'm sitting at the bar and order a nice locally brewed beer, say a Blur
Ridge Amber. Noticing my enjoyment, the fellow next asks me about it. I say
it's good stuff. He orders one. He likes it so much he buys another, then
three more. He then drives home, and causes a terrible accident that he
could have avoided if he hadn't had those beers.
My fault? Hell no. I am not responsible for the unpredicatable and
indirect result of my enjoying a beer.
>|> >Drug users pushed it underground by continuing to purchase drugs once
>|> >the government made them illegal. I blame the users.
>|>
>|> The government had no legal or moral authority to make such laws in
>|> the first place; to continue to attempt to legislate and enforce what I may
>|> or may not do with my own body is tyranny of the worst sort, to be resisted
>|> by any means necessary.
>
>Obviously they had the authority, because today drugs are illegal.
<Sigh.> The fact that the govenment makes a law doesn't mean they had
the rightful authority to do so. Congress could pass a law mandating that
we all read the bible for half an hour a day, but that doesn't mean that
they had the rightful authority to do so.
"Laws are only words words written on paper, words that change on
society's whim and are interpreted differently daily by politicians,
lawyers, judges, and policemen. Anyone who believes that all laws should
always be obeyed would have made a fine slave catcher. Anyone who
believes that all laws are applied equally, despite race, religion, or
economic status, is a fool."
-- John J. Miller, "And Hope to Die"
(in _Jokertown Shuffle - Wild Cards IX_)
>The fact is that drugs are illegal and until a time when they are legal,
>police, prosecutors, judges must enforce the law.
They have a choice whether or not to enforce abhorant laws. "I was
only following orders" doesn't cut it.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise
infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand
Jury... nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be
twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in
any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived
of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor
shall private property be taken for public use, without just
compensation."
-- The Constitution of the United States of America
From tms Tue Oct 11 16:14:59 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: balt.general,dc.politics
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
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alby@uunet.uu.net (Anthony Williams) writes:
>>
> Yes. The majority of people who smoke don't die until they are
>within 10 years of the dying age. Plus Smoking doesn't alter your mind,
>unlike cocaine, crack, and LSD will.
Nicotine is indeed a psychoactive - mind-altering - drug. People who
smoke only occasionally do experience a "head rush", but consistent users
soon habituate to the effects.
> Alcohol is dangerous and can cause problems. But the difference is
>that a person who drinks does not NEED a drink, unlike the person who smokes
>crack, NEEDS that next smoke. Sure alcohol causes deadly addictions in
>people, but not to the effect that cocaine can have on a person.
Alcohol is _much_ more addictive. It's one of the few drugs that
changes the nervous system of addicts so much that they can die if deprived
of it.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise
infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand
Jury... nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be
twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in
any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived
of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor
shall private property be taken for public use, without just
compensation."
-- The Constitution of the United States of America
From tms Wed Oct 12 13:00:38 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
Expires:
References: <1994Oct9.161255.10976@noao.edu> <37edl0$jib@shemesh.
tis.com> <1994Oct12.020450.20081@noao.edu>
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution: dc,world
Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc.
Keywords:
mvk@yogi.tuc.noao.edu (Mary Ker) writes:
>
>: The historical evidence doesn't seem to support this. Addicts of a
>: century or so ago, mostly middle-class users of patent medicines, seem to
>: have been quite un-impaired. Consider some famous examples: Sigmund Freud
>: and Thomas Edison were coke-heads, Dr. William Halsted (leading surgeon and
>: co-founder of John Hopkins Hospital) was a morphine addict.
>
>I find it unpersuasive that you can come up with a few people who seemed
>to function while doing drugs.
Of course you shouldn't be persuaded by anecdotal evidence. But the
entire population of narcotics addicts from that time seem to have had a
lot fewer problems than addicts of today.
> But let's be clear here;
>are you arguing that the dysfunctional, irrational, impulsive behavior
>of addicts is in no way a biological phenomenon?
Do you mean "some addicts", "most addicts", or "all addicts" here? I
am certainly not convinced that all or most addicts are dysfunctional,
irrational, or impulsive.
> Or in no way the long-
>term effect of the drugs themselves, as opposed to the WOD? Are
>you arguing that it is 100% cultural or personal?
100%? No. But certainly culture enters into it in a large way. Addicts
who have ready, legal access to the drug to which they are addicted
generally function better than those who have to evade law enforcement
officers and hustle, deal, or steal to get the money for their fix.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"Go on! Shoot me again! I enjoy it! I love the smell of burnt feathers
and gunpowder and cordite!"
-- Daffy Duck, "Duck! Rabbit! Duck!"
From tms Mon Oct 17 12:19:48 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
Expires:
References: <1994Oct9.161255.10976@noao.edu> <37edl0$jib@shemesh.
tis.com> <37m3h9$nkv@bigdog.fred.net>
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trajon@bigdog.fred.net (Tracey or Jon) writes:
>
>: The historical evidence doesn't seem to support this. Addicts of a
>: century or so ago, mostly middle-class users of patent medicines, seem to
>: have been quite un-impaired. Consider some famous examples: Sigmund Freud
>: and Thomas Edison were coke-heads, Dr. William Halsted (leading surgeon and
>: co-founder of John Hopkins Hospital) was a morphine addict.
>
>Listing three examples may be historical, but it is also antecdotal.
>These men would probably have been great without the drugs. The fact that
>they were able to make such an impact on western civilization is probably
>a tribute to their constiution rather than a plus for drug use.
Sure. I'm certainly not claiming that addiction made these men great.
However, they _do_ stand as counter-examples to the myth that addicts are
universally dysfunction, violent, or "monsters".
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"If the aborigine drafted an IQ test, all of Western civilization would
presumably flunk it." -- Stanley Garn
From tms Mon Oct 17 12:23:19 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Maryland -- Republican vs. Democrat
Summary:
Expires:
References: <1994Oct9.162223.11230@noao.edu> <37e4cj$9r3@bronze.
lcs.mit.edu> <37m2o7$nff@bigdog.fred.net>
Sender:
Followup-To:
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trajon@bigdog.fred.net (Tracey or Jon) writes:
>
>If you want to base your whole society's rules/laws on what one person
>would do then we'd live in chaos. Who would that one person be?
>If it were me, murder, rape, mugging, robbing, assault & battery, etc
>would all be legal because I don't do those things. Of course, someone
>else might or some do do those things. The effects of those acts injure
>society (and real people) so they are illegal.
No, they don't injure society. "Society" is an abstract idea, like the
number three. You can no more harm society than you can harm the number
three.
These acts harm people, and that's what's important.
===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@tis.com | "Born to die." | Keep your laws off my brain!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe
You Are Being Lied To.
"If the aborigine drafted an IQ test, all of Western civilization would
presumably flunk it." -- Stanley Garn
]]>
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